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Hi Benno, 1) I had similar question before. I'm sorry I can't remember the conclusion for GRIB, but for BUFR, there are several element descriptors whose definition changed over time. WMO is trying to maintain upper compatibility, but sometimes something happened unfortunately. I guess it is safer to assume GRIB is in similar status. 2) Again I'm sorry the table posted at following site is the only one maintained. http://www.wmo.int/pages/prog/www/WMOCodes/WMO306_vI2/LatestVERSION/LatestVERSION.html Collecting local tables is I think the next step. 3) You'll need the code of the originating centre (and probably sub-centre) to identify the local table. By the way I think NCEP and ECMWF are using different short names for GRIB parameters. So I don't think it is easy for WMO to establish its standard name. Sorry about unconfortable answers.... Eizi ----- Original Message ----- From: Benno Blumenthal To: TOYODA Eizi Cc: John Caron ; THREDDS community ; Java NetCDF Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2013 2:33 AM Subject: Re: [thredds] Help with GRIB encoding - what is "reference time of data" ?? I have been looking at grib2, and was hoping I could get some help on some lower-level metadata questions. 1) wmo code tables have version numbers which are also in the data records -- is it sufficient to use a code table that has version number greater than or equal to the number in the record, or do we have to match the version number in the record? WMO is on version 12, my test data of interest is version 1, I would much rather have a single latest-and-greatest that keep all twelve-and-counting versions. 2) there are xml versions of the wmo code tables, which can be converted into something more programmatically useful. Is there a standard set of converted tables, i.e. XML with clean discipline, category, version coding? Can the same be said of local tables, e.g. NCEP for starters? 3) my understanding so far is that to identify a scientific parameter (a.k.a standard_name) in grib we need wmo table version or local table version, data source (if local table), discipline, category, parameter number, and where (and if) we find this info depends on the PDS template number. NCEP maps this to short names, though WMO does not. And you are presumably mapping this to standard_names as well. Are these mappings available, i.e. in XML format? On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 5:05 AM, TOYODA Eizi <toyoda@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: Hi John, Yes JMA still issues GRIB edition 1 for: - bulletins sent to GTS since long time ago, and - the reanalysis project JRA-25 and JRA-55 (coming). In the reanalysis there are some products like monthly average, for which multiple model runs are used in a single message. In that case my understanding is that the reference time is set to the beginning of the time range. Situations are similar in GRIB2. I'm hoping the ECMWF reanalysis will start using GRIB2 sometime. I'm afraid I don't know actual data using "Verifying time of forecast" (CT1.2:2). The reason why GRIB distinguishes "Analysis" time (CT1.2:0) and "Start of forecast" (CT1.2:1) might be rather historic nowadays. It has a root in the difference between data, i.e. analysis and initialized analysis (sometimes called data for ft=0). Analysis is a best estimate of the state of the atmosphere, made from observation and past numerical forecast. In the past NWP centers used methods called nudging or optimal interpolation (the latter is same as what geographers call kriging). The bad thing is the result may contain inbalance between wind and pressure, which causes unnatural gravity wave in the forecast. So people had to remove such inbalance after analysis. That is the "initialization" heavily mentioned in GRIB edition 1. Recent NWP systems use variational assimilation, which has less such problem. So the analysis simply becomes the initial field without much changes. I don't think somebody still issues "initialized analysis" separated from "(uninitialized) analysis". In GRIB edition 2, the concept remains in a footnote in the Code table 1.4, but usually the analysis and forecast are put in a single GRIB message for Forecast products (CT1.4:1). In short, people no longer cares. Best, Eizi ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Caron" <caron@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: "Eizi TOYODA" <toyoda@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Cc: "THREDDS community" <thredds@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Java NetCDF" <netcdf-java@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 12:09 AM Subject: Re: [thredds] Help with GRIB encoding - what is "reference time of data" ?? Hi Eizi: Thanks for clarifying that terminology, I see that my understanding has been a bit fuzzy. I think I do indeed mean "Start of forecast", not the actual time the model was run. Does your agency still use GRIB-1? If so, do you ever code anything other than the "Start of forecast" in the reference time ? If you use GRIB-2, do you set "Significance of reference time" equal to 1 = "Start of forecast" ? Finally, what in your opinion is the meaning of the other "Significance of reference time" codes, esp how does "Analysis" differ from "Start of forecast" ? thanks, John On 11/26/2013 2:23 AM, Eizi TOYODA wrote: Hi John, I'm not sure what do you mean by "run time". If you want the date/time at which the forecast model started, I don't think GRIB contains it. If you mean the initial time of forecast model, that is "Start of forecast" and it is really common to use this as reference time. Best, -- Eizi TOYODA: Japan Meteorological Agency Associate member of WMO/CBS/OPAG-ISS/IPET-DRMM Best Regards, -- Eiji (aka Eizi) TOYODA http://www.google.com/profiles/toyoda.eizi On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 3:03 AM, John Caron <caron@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:caron@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote: The question is whether the CDM can assume that GRIB "Reference time of data" is the "run time" of a forecast model. In GRIB-1 docs, in the PDS there is: "Reference time of data – date and time of start of averaging or accumulation period" In GRIB-2 in Identification section, there is: 12 Significance of reference time (see Code table 1.2) Reference time of data: 13–14 Year (4 digits) 15 Month 16 Day 17 Hour 18 Minute 19 Second And Code table 1.2 has the following: Code Table Code table 1.2 - Significance of reference time (1.2) 0: Analysis 1: Start of forecast 2: Verifying time of forecast 3: Observation time -1: Reserved -1: Reserved for local use 255: Missing None of this obviously refers to "run time", although I suspect that's how many centers use it. However, it appears that when you want to define a time interval, say "average of the temperature, starting 12 hours and ending 24 hours from reference, you may use the reference time to define the start of that interval. In which case, its not the runtime. Im hoping thats not the case, that reference time is the same as the run time for forecast models. So if you know how to interpret these for any or all datasets, please send me a note, or post to this group. Please pass this question on to anyone who might be willing to contribute. Thanks! John _______________________________________________ thredds mailing list thredds@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:thredds@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> For list information or to unsubscribe, visit: http://www.unidata.ucar.edu/mailing_lists/ _______________________________________________ thredds mailing list thredds@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx For list information or to unsubscribe, visit: http://www.unidata.ucar.edu/mailing_lists/ -- Dr. M. Benno Blumenthal benno@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx International Research Institute for climate and society The Earth Institute at Columbia University Lamont Campus, Palisades NY 10964-8000 (845) 680-4450
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